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Author Topic: Overpowered elements.  (Read 12268 times)
Snuzzle
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« on: June 02, 2010, 07:29:03 pm »
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Can we please do something about vamp raider and metal assistants?  I'm so fed up with how much these sway individual battles.  I'm also fed up with all the people who complain about assisters when they get a vamp incoming.  (Although these same people never seem to complain when they get a ridiculously overpowered metal defender helping them out, although raiders certainly should.)

Theoretically, all the elements are supposed to be equal, and it's only in particular situations that one element works better than another.  The obvious problem with this, of course, that elements were balanced with one-on-one combat in mind.  I'm convinced that no consideration was ever given in development to what happens when a third party is involved.

So, FINALLY, can we pretty please with a cherry on top fix these two stupid elements?
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Hippolyta
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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2010, 04:04:57 am »
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I'll concur. Big metal double walls are horrible even when attacking with vamp.
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Lew
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2010, 08:22:45 am »
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+1 to nerfs

Maybe significantly increase their stat gain penalties? I'm not sure how to fairly change the element's combat functionality though.
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Snuzzle
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2010, 08:35:06 am »
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Maybe significantly increase their stat gain penalties? I'm not sure how to fairly change the element's combat functionality though.

Me either.  I'd probably suggested a vamp raider leaching only 33% or 50% of normal from assister.  (At, at full attunement, they'd leach 8.33% or 12.5% instead of 25%.)  Same with metal assister reflecting damage.

This is not unprecedented.  Water assisters have their elements halved when assisting.  It's not all that radical a proposal.

Even with such a nerf, vamp raiders and metal defenders would still be the top in their respective categories.  There's a lot to be said for guaranteed damage reflected or leeched.
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The Man with the Lightbulb Head
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2010, 10:04:48 am »
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-1

This over powers MO even more, which I think is behind the proposal.
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Hippolyta
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2010, 10:49:25 am »
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-1

This over powers MO even more, which I think is behind the proposal.

What? That doesn't make any sense. Am I missing something?
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neellocm
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2010, 11:26:54 am »
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This has nothing to do with MO.. It has to do with the fact that metal assistants and Vamp attackers are way overpowered when there is a third dragon involved, regardless of MO.

Most, if not all, other elements effectiveness are reduced while assisting because of the stat penalty that the assister has while assisting. Air, fire, energy, electric, chaos have reduced damage due to 1/2 strength, poison, ice, shadow,and  light, have reduced effectiveness because of the assisters reduced agility, and nature, earth, psychic don't do any  damage and simply prolong the assisters duration and water already has a half penalty (if it works at all) to assisting effectiveness.

Metal however, has a BOOST when assisting.  Since the agility penalty would make it easier for the attacker to hit the assister and have the entire 25% of damage reflected.

The same with Vampire raiders.  Since the effectiveness of all other elements omitting metal is reduced by about half while assisting, it's difficult to see why a Vamp raider should be able to use the FULL 25% leaching powers.  It's entirely unbalanced and unless there is some seriously effective defensive MO , or the assister is the grossly over-powered metal than there's no way for the assister to be equally effective and helpful against that raider.
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Snuzzle
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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2010, 11:38:41 am »
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This over powers MO even more, which I think is behind the proposal.

Yeah, you'd have to explain that one.

Actually, never mind.  The statement implicitly accepts that some elements are overpowered.  (I.e., it's saying being overpowered is necessary to counteract MO.)  Since the fact that any element is overpowered over another is all the reason necessary to rebalance that element, the argument seems to be over.
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Smauglet and Trinity
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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2010, 12:14:45 pm »
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This could be done for any re-release, but not more than a year into the game.  The effects of those elements in multi opponent combat have been well known for a long time (and perhaps it is no accident that both carry a multi-opponent training penalty) and many players will have chosen their play style on that basis.  Why should they be penalised?
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Snuzzle
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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2010, 12:28:35 pm »
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many players will have chosen their play style on that basis.  Why should they be penalised?

1.  To balance all the elements as per the original conceptions.
2.  To stop penalizing the users of the OTHER 14 elements who don't want either of those two.
3.  To stop complaints about toxic assisters.
4.  To stop conversations about assisters with "wrong elements."  (people usually mean by this, any element except ice or metal)
5.  To further justify not including elements into the bump-o-meter.


Actually, there's tons of decent reasons to change it.


I'm also not sure why people would think of nerfing these elements as a "penalty."  In one sense, sure.  In another sense, they've had over a year of using an element which is drasitically more powerful than other elements in a certain (very prevalent) situation.  That's like giving someone a money tree and then "penalizing" then 10 percent in taxes.
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Wolfsister
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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2010, 12:49:42 pm »
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I actually do not see these elements as a real problem.  I've lost as a vamp attacker before; there's a lot more too it than just the element.  I've also won against vamp attackers without a metal assistant.  Using vamp and metal is just one strategy, and it is very effective, but it doesn't necessarily overwhelm other playing styles.  This does seem to be the preferred combination for most, but it doesn't always turn out to be the best.

And personally, I think not liking that people complain about their assistants doesn't really have much to do with how elements work.  Those people are most likely the ones who would complain if they lost no matter what happened.

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neellocm
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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2010, 12:56:20 pm »
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-1

This could be done for any re-release, but not more than a year into the game.  The effects of those elements in multi opponent combat have been well known for a long time (and perhaps it is no accident that both carry a multi-opponent training penalty) and many players will have chosen their play style on that basis.  Why should they be penalised?
Using that same logic... Once upon a time there were some dragons who figured out that if you retreated your attack in a losing battle you could save yourself from losing glicko points.  After months and months of playing that way the devs changed the system so that this was no longer an option and doing so actually came with a larger penalty than had you lost the battle.  Why should THEY have been penalized by losing this grossly one sided and over powered tactic?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 01:00:56 pm by neellocm » Logged
Smauglet and Trinity
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« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2010, 01:10:48 pm »
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Using that same logic... Once upon a time there were some dragons who figured out that if you retreated your attack in a losing battle you could save yourself from losing glicko points.  After months and months of playing that way the devs changed the system so that this was no longer an option and doing so actually came with a larger penalty than had you lost the battle.  Why should THEY have been penalized by losing this grossly one sided and over powered tactic?


 Huh?  I fail to see what the closing of the Glicko exploit has to do with the amount of time it takes to attune fully to vamp or metal or the training penalties incurred while attuned to either element.
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masterfool
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« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2010, 01:41:20 pm »
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1)  I fully understand the so-called "problem" . . . I just don't think it's much of a problem.

2)  This is not an exploit of any kind.  It's not a bug.  Metal and Vamp work EXACTLY as they were intended.  Therefore, it can't be compared to the glicko loophole.

3)  If you are going to reduce how much Metal dragons as assistants reflect, or how much a vamp drains from an assistant, then you'd also have to chance how EVERY OTHER ELEMENT affected the assistant.  For example, Fire should only do half damage to an assistant, and the chance for an air dragon to double strike against an assistant would have to be reduced.  Furthermore, when fighting a battle with an assistant involved, a Nature dragon would have to be granted MORE regeneration.

4)  Most importantly, as has been mentioned numerous times, the devs are now, and have been for some time, well aware of these so called "issues" . . . and since the beginning have declined to "fix" them.  They're not about to start now.  It WOULD overly affect many people who have incorporated this into their play styles.  So, to back up Smauglet, I agree that while it MIGHT be something to consider for a re-release (hell, IMO the Entire Elemental System and how it works in multi-opponent battles needs to be revamped), it's not something I would ask to be fixed in THIS version.
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Hippolyta
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« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2010, 03:50:55 pm »
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revamped

*giggles*
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