Chaos V Electric. In theory which one can do the most damage?

[Jack Vellum]

I was just perusing the elemental descriptions and noticed a couple of things.

A chaos dragon is able to inflict more damage per round than any other dragon type........a chaos dragon does -30 to +80% damage.

and

An Electric dragon's strength is boosted by 0.9% to 4.5% depending on attunment, up to a max of 90%.

Wouldn't this mean that on average a Chaos dragon has a 25% boost and an Electric dragon has a boost of 47%, assuming 100% attunment in each. Also if an electric dragon lasts 20 round (along with their rival) doesn't this mean that they also have the best chance of inflicting the most damage in one round. Basically I'm confused by the Chaos dragon opening statement. Does it assume a battle length of 12 rounds?

[SaintG]

I seem to remember that all elements are to be balanced (with approximately 25% "boost") at 12 rounds. Some (can) pay off very early (air and psychic, typically, if they trigger early) while others (like electric) grow better the longer the combat lasts.

If the quote from the chaos description is correct then there are other stuff than strength involved in calculating max potential damage (we must assume max values for all random variables here).

I think the quote is wrong and that an electric dragon with maximum luck can deliver a bigger hit in round 20 (or later in a duel) than a chaos dragon.

Of course the ultimate (potential) damage dealer then would be a fully potioned DG facing a very tough electric opponent over 20+ rounds...

[Paragon]

Does it assume a battle length of 12 rounds?

I would expect so, or something like this. I rarely see 20 round battles (unless I'm trying to get that annoying achievement that seems to evade me )

Of course the ultimate (potential) damage dealer then would be a fully potioned DG facing a very tough electric opponent over 20+ rounds...

I'm not too sure on this one. Electric's power is capped at 90%. Doppelganger boosts and EE's will increase the power, but the cap is independent of the attunement (assuming the elemental popup box is right (and who knows on that?)). So your maximum strength boost is 90% - regardless of attunement.
Chaos, on the other hand, seems to have it's cap dependent on attunement. So Doppel Chaos with EE's would have a higher cap than 80%. So the question would be "what is the damage range of fully potioned (doppelled) Chaos"?

[Lew]

I'm somewhat sure that the answer to the question would be: In theory, electric could do the most damage. In a 20 round battle, electric should reach it's peak in strength bonus on the 20th round. The longer the battle, the better for electric. But on round 1, chaos will help to deal more damage. I suppose the 2 are 'balanced' in that chaos is instant damage boost, which will remain constant (beyond the chaos dice roll) while electric will slowly increase with each passing turn.

[Lady__Dragon]

I would question whether or not energy should be tossed into this discussion.

When it kicks in, at 100% attunement, it gives a 75% boost to strength, along with a 50% agility boost. While the strength boost is less than either chaos' or electric's, it has the agility boost to help it hit in the higher end of the range that neither electric nor chaos have.

I personally suspect that the agility boost makes a pretty big difference, and it may be more than the extra 10% or 15% strength that chaos and electric give.

[SaintG]

Nah, we're concerned with the maximum hit when the RNG is not only nice, but performing services best left to the dirty minds of the individual trainers.

I think it was stated that Strength and only Strength determines the possible outcomes of a hit (with regard to damage).
Agility determines where in that range you actually hit.

But when we talk about maximum damage I think it would be fair to assume an opponent who is big, fat, slow and blind so that you can get the maximum damage on a single hit. And in that case the only question is if Electricity's 90% boost to strength gives a higher maximum damage than Chaos' +80% directly to damage.

Since 1 strength gives less than 1 damage (at least from what I have seen) I think that 10% boost to strength is (significantly) less than 10% boost directly to damage.

Actually I feel confident from data being shown in the forum (Greatest hits and some stats being reveiled) that 1 strength gives less than 0.5 points in max damage, at least for bigger dragons. In which case Chaos has a significantly higher maximum damage than electricity.

[Alfarion]

Sorry SaintG, but that argument is a fallacy.

Yes, adding 1 point of strength will increase your damage by output by less than 1, but it doesn't logically follow that adding 10% to strength will increase damage by less than 10%.

Lets for the sake of argument assume that the coding is done so the max damage you can do on a non-crit is one tenth of your strength, which is close to what I am experiencing.
So take a dragon with 10.000 strength, that can do 1.000 damage.
If you add 10% to strength he now has 11.000 strength and can do 1.100 damage - in other words exactly 10% more.

I am not saying this is necessarily how it works, but it's certainly a possibility until disproven by empirical evidence.

[SaintG]

Man, I shouldn't do math when I'm too tired to play games and read forums instead 
*hangs head in shame*

Case still open, then 

[Paragon]

Lets for the sake of argument assume that the coding is done so the max damage you can do on a non-crit is one tenth of your strength, which is close to what I am experiencing.

Is this including or excluding effects like elements, equipment and potions?

In any case:

I will confirm that a bonus to strength is 1:1 proportional to bonus in damage.

Case closed?

[SaintG]

That quote should settle it:
Max Damage should come from a max lucky doppel fighting an electric dragon over 20 rounds. (Obtaining max bonus might be faster, but after 20 rounds it should most certainly have maxed out. Elextricity is better than Chaos and the sales pitch is lying 

[Lucifer Rising]

Quote from: Ravenex on July 12, 2009, 10:05:30 AM
I will confirm that a bonus to strength is 1:1 proportional to bonus in damage.
Case closed?

Wait. . . . so if you have 20k strength (with 10k items/potions damage), you're supposed to do 30k damage?   I gotta be missing something.

[Alfarion]

The quot

Is this including or excluding effects like elements, equipment and potions?

I haven't really studied this, but it seems to me that my max non crit damage is around 10% of my base strength in most combats, meaning those where both my opponent and I are fully boosted.
The +50% to strength from equipment should exactly cancel out the 33% DR from the opponent so the max damage should be the same for duels without items.
My element doesn't affect max damage in any way.

Wait. . . . so if you have 20k strength (with 10k items/potions damage), you're supposed to do 30k damage?   I gotta be missing something.

I guess he shouldn't have said 1:1, but just linearly proportional, meaning base damage done is some factor times your strength. (Where the exact factor for the round is determine by agility and the RNG)

[masterfool]

Wait. . . . so if you have 20k strength (with 10k items/potions damage), you're supposed to do 30k damage?   I gotta be missing something.

What he is saying is that Strength BONUSES are equivalent to damage BONUSES, not that 1 strength gives 1 point of damage.  So basically, the PERCENTAGE BONUSES are equivalent.