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Poll
Question: What is harder?  (Voting closed: March 15, 2008, 10:52:34 pm)
Being high on the All Around board? - 26 (40.6%)
Being high on the Wealthiest board? - 7 (10.9%)
Being high on the Largest board? - 9 (14.1%)
Being high on the Greatest Fighters board? - 22 (34.4%)
Total Voters: 60

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Author Topic: What is harder?  (Read 5352 times)
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« on: March 08, 2008, 10:52:34 pm »
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The All Around Board (VOTES:  26.  Highest)

Requires good ranks on the other 3 boards. 
Those who succeed grow/max and raid to increase gold amount. 
Moderate amount of movement on the board.
It is possible to move up the board.
Because it relies on all three ranks, they cannot afford to sacrifice in any of the three areas

My thoughts:  Given that this board requires good ranks on all the boards, it is hardly surprising that it got the most votes.  The #1 spot is extremely coveted and competition among members is extremely fierce.  Members are targeted by everybody, including those not even close to them on the board.  They have gold, and there is prestige associated with beating someone who is high on the board.  Those that beat Rav or Ru will always be able to say they beat #1.  Many will not.

The Greatest Fighter Board (VOTES:  22.  Second Highest)

Requires near perfect records. 
Those who succeed bottom feed and care little for gold and seek victory at all costs
Very little movement on the board.
It is very hard to move up the board.
Sacrifice gold for being on this board.

Given the need for a perfect record, it is also not surprising that this got almost as many votes as the AA board.  BUT, bottom feeding is relatively easy and the dragons on this board remain extremely unattractive targets due to lack of gold and impressive BRs.  These dragons attract very little opposition and go about their business with little or no interference.  Intense competition amongst board members exists and should not be discounted.

The Largest Board (VOTES:  9.  Third Highest)

Requires 20 turns into hunting per day since the beginning.
Those who succeed are those that have been eating since day one. You could argue this is the most exclusive lifestyle.
Little to no movement on the board. 
Nearly impossible to rise on this board.  Those who are ahead, stay ahead.  Reasons you may move up include people quiting, or forgetting to take turns.
Sacrifice gold and FS to be on this board.

I am not surprised at all that this did not get very many votes in comparison to the above.  HOWEVER, I feel it is important to note that depending on the way you look at it, this board could be considered the hardest board to be on because it is the most exclusive.  No one can move up on the board because those who have the weight can't lose it and continue to gain.  Once ahead, always ahead.  It is extremely easy to eat every day but extremely hard to get onto the board by any known means if you are not already on it.

The Wealthiest Board (VOTES:  7.  Fourth Highest)

Requires caving and 20 turns per day into gold since the beginning OR constantly raiding and 20 turns into gold every day, possibly growing/maxing to catch cavers.
Those who succeed have been digging since day 1 OR are extremely successful at stealing gold and keeping it.
Until recently there was little movement.  Reasons for board movement is the raiders (eg. UNCLE, individuals raiding)
Cavers get raided and other move up OR raiders move up with each raid.
Sacrifice size to be on this board, most cavers and raiders are in the smaller sizes.

To be honest, this result is the one I have wanted to talk about since the beginning.  I am surprised that it did not do better than the Largest board given the simplicity (not exclusivity) or that board.  However, it being the board thought to be the least difficult to be on, completely illustrates the point I set out to make.

There are two lifestyles.

Cavers.  Caving is easy.  Those at the top have done exactly the same thing as the eaters, they have put 20 turns into gold since they were small.  The oldest have the most CS and are therefor more likely to be higher on the board.  BUT!!!  The cavers are under attack.  The movement we have seen on the wealth board is unprecedented in the history of PD.  With every passing day people make the shift from attacking the richest dragon they can find, to attacking the richest dragon they can't find.  Dragons on the AA board are also among those attacking cavers.  It is getting increasingly HARDER for cavers to maintain their spots on the board.  Randomly taking turns and very quick fingers is all that may keep a caver where he is on the board.  Even those cavers are being threatened.  Given the the difficulty of maintaining this lifestyle, I find it highly disturbing that people don't see the difficulty of being and remaining on the wealth board.  There is no prestige associated with this board and I think it deserves a lot more that it gets.

Raiders.  Now it gets juicy.  It would seem that the life of the raider was not taken into account when voting.  I would argue that in addition to the difficulties faced by the cavers, raiders (who are inherently younger than the cavers) also have the difficulty of having to be out and about when they make their attacks.  This makes it harder for them to keep their gold than it is for cavers.  Raiders must constantly be raiding and averaging positive gains if they hope to maintain their spot or move up.  EDIT:  In addition to raiding constantly, raiders must not over raid a single caver.  If they do, the caver may quit which means the raider has lost a valuable resource, and has to rely on fewer cavers for gold.  In turn he has to raid them more often, increasing the chance that they will quit/become poor.  A careful balance needs to maintained if the raider wants to continue to advance (End Edit).  They also need to make sure that there is a enough gold there the next If they cave and rely only on digging, they will quickly loss spots because they do not have the CS that the lifetime cavers do.  The raiders are often small and cannot rely on impressive FS, everyone that attacks them, and even most cavers are maxed.  Only the big cavers stand very little chance of winning. 

Conclusion

I will not argue that the AA and and GF board are hard to be on, they are.  But I also think that is impossible to compare the boards in difficulty.  New players and people on the Largest board cannot hope to move up the board in the top 100.  It is easy to have done if you were here since the beginning but for everyone else it is impossible to succeed on.

As a raider and sometime caver, I can attest to the difficulty of being on the wealth board.  I recently lost 1 million gold in a single raid, only to get 500 k in the attack that brought me out of my cave.  Very few people have succeeded at advancing up the wealth board.  I am the only one to reach the top 20, something that is hard to do on the AA and GF boards and which gets noticed on those boards.  There are only a handful of other dragons who have raided into the top 100, Ravenex included (who I will admit has the single most difficult position to maintain).  EDIT:  I am also running out of cavers for the reasons I mentioned above.  Raiding cavers is so popular now that I have competition over cavers in my range, and these cavers are being raided before I can get there.  Two raiders I had been cultivating for weeks, both got raided before I could get there.  One got raided for over a million gold and quit, and the other also quit.  I'm running out of cavers, its almost impossible to maintain my spot.  The carefully constructed balance that I created was ruined by no fault of my own.  Although you could argue that I did not do myself any favors by publicizing my efforts and creating UNCLE  blue wink (End Edit). 

Given the importance of gold to the raiders, the cavers, and the AA dragons, the rich dragons are probably the single most targeted group of dragons in the game for rising on the boards.  But the results of the votes show no recognition for the challenge of being on and maintaining a position on the wealth board.  Very few people in the game even realize that people like me are successfully raiding their way up the board.  This is partly because we need to maintain a low profile to maintain positive gains, but it does not take a way from how truly difficult it is to do.  There is no prestige, as the voting shows, of those who strive to be on the wealth board. 

My purpose with this poll was to highlight the lack of consideration for the largest and wealth boards.  Depending on the way you think about it, each board is difficult to be on.  Without exception they require continued effort and are by no means easy.  I just think people need to realize that different styles of play are difficult.  Who is 'good' at PD is largely based on how high you are on the AA board but this by no means reflects the difficulty of other styles of play and perhaps the perception of 'difficulty' needs re-evaluating.  I for one feel that other styles of play need to be recognized as difficult and prestigious.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 10:22:19 pm by Chris and the Twins » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2008, 09:59:12 am »
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cn't u jst make anothr 1 with all the options?
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« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2008, 10:10:38 am »
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no need really... everyone would choose that one
yea i guess dats rite....
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« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2008, 01:01:57 pm »
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Nice findings.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 01:32:17 pm by Gaz » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2008, 04:26:59 pm »
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I want to discuss this... I'm a doctor and I want my sausages.
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« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2008, 08:46:30 pm »
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Voting closes in 2 hours but the results are now available if you have voted.  EDIT:  I have now closed the voting.

PLEASE DO ME A FAVOR AND READ WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN IN THE FIRST POST

Let the discussion begin!
« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 09:14:55 pm by Chris and the Twins » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2008, 09:07:33 pm »
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I had voted for the wealth board for the same reasons you mentioned. I am high on the Fight Board, but bottom feeding is rather easy once you know what you are doing. It is very competitive up at the top but easy to keep fighting and winning most battles.

The weight board is just as you said, only boring.

The wealth board however is something else. You have to compete with Cavers who take no chances in amassing their collections. Raiders simply can not work their way up with out a LOT of luck. Like you said, for every 500k you might win in a battle, 5 incomings could rob you of 5 times as much. To make matters worse, raiders have to put points into weight and fight skills, not just gold. That right there puts them at a disadvantage with cavers competing on that same board.

I don't think the All Around is the hardest because though you need to be up there weight and gold wise, you don't have to be at the very very top of each of the other boards to get there. Take the example of a fiery flaming dragon who shall remain nameless. He/She was near the top of the fight board, caved to collect gold and weight and is now toward the top of the all around. Skill and a good strategy worked out well for this trainer.

Nice poll and it should generate some good discussion about ways to play that 'succeed'.
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« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2008, 09:16:00 pm »
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I had voted for the wealth board for the same reasons you mentioned. I am high on the Fight Board, but bottom feeding is rather easy once you know what you are doing. It is very competitive up at the top but easy to keep fighting and winning most battles.

I love that the first person who posted thinks the same way as me. 

*11762394872693587 hugs*

Edit:  One thing tough, raiders do rely on luck, but its also skill.  Calling it luck devalues that there is incredible amounts of skill involved.  We do need to get lucky, but there is a lot of strategy and skill that goes into avoiding incoming, winning incoming, keeping a group of cavers with gold, and genarlly maintaining/advancing.

One of the problems is that people associate raiding with luck.  We have no power on how much we win but being consistently successful and constantly raiding is not luck.  There are also risks we can take to maximize the amount of gold we raid.  I for example only wear lvl2 claws and sell them/buy lvl2 scales when I get incoming.  Thats is a very expensive habit, and can be counter productive to rising on the board.  If I lose, I lose the raided gold, and the gold from selling/buying.  I also never use Hoarder's Delight because I don't want to lose ANY gold, not just LESS gold.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 09:37:13 pm by Chris and the Twins » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2008, 09:40:27 pm »
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I voted for the largest. I find it is very difficult to make any head way there. I am in huge and still around 75k. The rest may be hard, but not quite as hard as obtaining weight. I hear some of the heaviest dragons may be around 800k. How is the rest to compete with numbers like that. Being at the top of any one board is very difficult, but increasing your rank in the other 3 can be accomplished much easier than the largest board.
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Unofficial Weight Size, Gold/Treasure Class & Battle Percentage Thread
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« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2008, 10:08:01 pm »
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All around for me... its always the most difficult to be an all-rounder isnt it =)
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« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2008, 10:12:11 pm »
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I voeted all around.  Its really easy to learn to do one thing well.  Its much harder to do everything well.
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« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2008, 10:17:03 pm »
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I voeted all around.  Its really easy to learn to do one thing well.  Its much harder to do everything well.

Its not easy to do one thing well, if it was we would have a much more competitive game and see much more movement on the boards.  There are thousands of dragons who don't do well because other people are better at the game.

But I agree with you, there is something to be said about doing all three things well.  Then again, the people who are higher on those other boards are doing something better than you at it which depending on how you look at it, is just as hard or harder.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 10:20:09 pm by Chris and the Twins » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2008, 10:39:45 pm »
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I think that it all depends on your priorities... for example me, I have a hard time getting anywhere on the weight board as I refuse to not be capped... therefore I am doomed to be 48K for now. I am 7K on the overall... but almost 1K on the fighters board. So weight is the hardest for me... but I think overall is the hardest for most.
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« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2008, 11:21:15 pm »
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I voted overall; here is my reasoning; not that it is all necessarily reasonable, some of it agrees with Chris and the Twins.

In rough order

Weight is an anomaly. It is the least hard if you are the person who is at the top. No one can knock you off the top, no one can steal your weight or in any way affect your weight gaining. Its impossible for anybody else to get to the top unless that player stops playing or resets.

Maintaining near perfect BR is hard, but providing you have a relatively quiet early game is possible; because of the formula for working out greatest fighter it is also possible to fight your way back into the higher end with a good ratio despite a fair few losses. I've noticed a recent phenomena of relatively young dragons with 0 losses rapidly climbing this board; I have some scepticism given that the two most recent examples have been very rich and been winning lots of battles a day while still in the size range that means everyone is FS capped, but it has affected my perceptions.

Gold is hard, especially since we have seen what members of UNCLE can do; at the same time caver raiders are out of their cave and are potential targets for folks like me who raid against non-cavers, we in turn are targets for dragons like ourselves.  All non-cavers who are reasonably rich will get annoyance attacks from lofty goalers and sometimes the dice roll goes against you, or whatever.

All around; having to grow beyond the range where people can maintain FS at cap; needing to maintain a large hoard of gold, and needing to maintain a good BR. Its hard.

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« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2008, 12:22:17 am »
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I voted all around:

Here was my general reasoning: 

1)  Weight Board:  As mentioned before . .. .you'll never make it to #1, but if you're willing to dedicate yourself to bloating, it's not that hard to make it to the top 1000 quickly.  Sure, you suffer by not getting gold, and your battle record (assuming people attack you on the way up) will probably suck.  But until you hit the "Soft Cap" - about 250kips - you can nearly double your weight each day.  That makes it easy to bypass most of the cavers and nearly all of the raiders pretty quickly.

2)  Battle Board:  While I agree that losing fights has a tendency to send you tumbling, TRUE bottom feeders can pretty easily find targets they're likely to win against.  And as has been mentioned numerous times, the general lack of gold is going to make you an unlikely target for aspiring dragons (except, perhaps, those closest to you on the battle board, who may want to send you tumbling).  In fact, once you DO have a great battle record, it's unlikely that you'll get many incomings at all - meaning you get to choose almost ALL of your battles . . . So I don't think this one is too hard at all.

3)  Money Board:  yes, the advent of UNCLE has made this one harder . . . but it's far from being difficult to get there.  Remember, a good caver can make unheardof amounts of gold every day, so while a single hit may strike you down for a bit, if you're already ahead of the others in Collecting Skill, you'll eventually make your way back up, assuming you don't get hit again.  Furthermore, Chris, In your post you failed to mention (or perhaps failed to notice) 2 things:

(a)  There is a new class of dragon arising:  The Raiding Caver.  These dragons only come out for Top 500 (some are more picky, Top 100-300) raids, and otherwise they stay in their cave the whole time.  My GF, for example, fits in this category.  She won't leave her cave for less than a heaping mound.  Other than that, she caves.  This gives her an enormous leap into the category, and keeps her safe 90% of the time.   However, what makes these dragons better than being just safe is that most of them have capped FS, and lots of friends.  They PLAN on being caught out, and account for it in their equipment and strategies.  True Cavers don't plan on being caught, and don't account for it.

(b)  I hate to say it, but I think UNCLE is a fad that will pass in the next month or so.  The Reason?  As Chris Said, you're putting yourselves out of business.  You've done nearly all the TRUE wealth Re-distribution that you can.  The biggest and best have been hit.  At some point, you'll either drive cavers out of business, or you'll run out of cavers to raid. Am I saying UNCLE will be gone?  No.  But it won't be the "thing" to do anymore.

Yes, it will always be popular to attack those on top.  But the cavers will get smarter.  The raiders will start caving when they're not out on an attack.  The wealth board will see movement WITHIN the top 500 or so, but little movement into or out of those regions.

Therefore, the hardest board to REALLY remain on top of is the ALL AROUND board.  Remember, if you tumble in ANY of the other boards, you likewise suffer on the all around board.  And the only way to get to the top is to be good at EVERYTHING.  You've got to be big (look at the top 100, there is only ONE Immense, the rest are all Colossal or Enormous).  You've got to be RICH (Full Cave is the lowest rank on the board, and I'm betting most of them are High End Full Cave).  And you've got to have a pretty damn good battle record (I only saw 1 dragon will LESS than a 2:1 BR, and that was a colossal heaping mound dragon.  Everyone else had at LEAST 2:1.  Most were between 3:1 and 5:1.  It was not uncommon to see dragons hovering around 10:1).

I'm not disrespecting anyone who makes it to the top of the other boards.  I think they all show immense skill in that specific area.  Either they're a good caver, immensely lucky raider, great bottom feeder, or they can pack in hot dogs greater than any New Yorker I've met.  But to be able to do all of them requires the kind of skill that doesn't come along very often.
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