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Author Topic: Bottom feeding: Good strategy or cheating?  (Read 9064 times)
Benjibob
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« on: January 10, 2008, 10:51:56 pm »
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First if it matters, less that 2% of attacks use rage... Second, the rage potion is the strongest boost to power available, but it is by no means a guaranteed win.  Third, 3 attacks in a day are an extremely rare case, the Haste potion is the least popular potion (about 1% of battles) and an extremely small percentage of dragons have the second wings and not the second helm.  Forth, the same argument could be made by a player with a 12 hour work day, or multiple jobs, or an hour commute against attacks less than 12 hours or 14 hours.  Fifth, most dragons rarely get attacked, few dragons get more than one a day, if you are attacked more then you have made your dragon an attractive target and are in the minority when it comes to incoming attacks.  Ravenex is attacked as many as 9 times a day often by the same dragon twice in a row or twice in a few days, I made him a very rich dragon I can't be upset that a lot of dragons attack me.  And because of my combat record only the toughest dragons in my class every come after me.   Lastly, very very few dragons can maintain a 5:1 ratio... Ravenex is the highest fight skill dragon in his weight class, and I know the equations which gives me a slight edge, and I've only managed about 3.5:1.  Almost all dragons maintaining better than a 3:1 or 4:1 are either cheating (I am not implicating you, simply emphasizing how rare it is), have gotten VERY lucky, or are bottom feeding.  While I understand you don't like the added uncertainty in the game, and that is a valid point for some people, I really have to doubt the new items are solely responsible.

 
This is in response to a recent post by Ravenex which I found really interesting, especially the section at the end, namely.

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Almost all dragons maintaining better than a 3:1 or 4:1 are either cheating (I am not implicating you, simply emphasizing how rare it is), have gotten VERY lucky, or are bottom feeding.

It appears we have all been implicated, so I don’t want to listen to moral high grounds please Smiley  The question I would like to pose is.  Is bottom feeding a bad thing, or is it good strategy that abides by correct roll play (in a fictitious PD "world").   All of us agree that attacking a really really young target with a 50 day difference is a bit much I imagine, or an obviously new dragon, but how about the in-between. 

Not including extremists who attack stupidly small dragons, is it bad to bottom feed?

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Ruaidhrí
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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2008, 11:14:11 pm »
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No.  I think it's smart to bottom feed the way you described it.  I never attack larger dragons.  They either have to be the same size or smaller.  I rarely attack older dragons.  Remember, they can get help, use turns to up there stats, and plan their defense (as much as you can plan one) before the fight ends.  I am locked into what I've decided to use when I clicked attack.  It would be ill-advised in my opinion to attack someone larger and older when they can do all that before the fight.
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Kestrel
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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2008, 11:18:56 pm »
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Depends on the definition of bottom-feeding.

But in general, no... I don't have a problem attacking a smaller dragon.  Or a younger one (ESPECIALLY in my weight class where it doesn't mean anything about turns).

I don't even have a problem attacking smaller, younger ones.  It's the natural order of things. 
Bigger/stronger whatever attacks smaller/weaker whatever to establish and protect his territory.

I think CONSISTENTLY doing it is problematic.  If that is ALL you attack, it's actually indicative of a perceived self-weakness. 

Personally, I'm all over the board (including larger/older). I attack INTERESTING targets.
That have gold.
Or have been bragging without backing up their words with actions.  green teeth
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SuperNerd1988
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2008, 01:27:03 am »
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If I'm fighting to get gold, I usually target smaller dragons because I'm more likely to get some.  I will however attack larger dragons if they have a lot of gold.  It's all a risk vs. reward kind of thing.  When presented with a smaller dragon with some amount of gold and a larger dragon with a greater amount of gold you can either A) attack the smaller one knowing you won't get as much gold for winning but having a greater chance getting something or B) go for the larger one, knowing a win is less likely but you will get more if you do win.  You just have to decide if it's worth losing that several hours with a failed attack to have a chance at a better haul.

To answer the question at hand, I don't think bottom feeding is bad.  It is a logical strategy to maximize your chances of getting gold.
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masterfool
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2008, 01:28:28 am »
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It appears we have all been implicated, so I don’t want to listen to moral high grounds please Smiley  The question I would like to pose is.  Is bottom feeding a bad thing, or is it good strategy that abides by correct roll play (in a fictitious PD "world").   All of us agree that attacking a really really young target with a 50 day difference is a bit much I imagine, or an obviously new dragon, but how about the in-between. 

Not including extremists who attack stupidly small dragons, is it bad to bottom feed?



Shatiz would tell you BOTH, and I would agree with him.

I think that bottom feeding IS a bad thing, in the essence that many players NEVER take chances, they only go for the weakest/richest they can find.  In that respect, it's not that great.

However, the rules of the game tend to necessitate it.  If you want to win, you need to bottom feed.  With the options of Mid-Fight Beefing and Assistance, to attack anyone close to your combat power or better is not just foolish, it practically amounts to suicide.
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bellatrix888warrior
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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2008, 03:46:37 am »
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Well in my current weight class....

Bottom feeding is really boring.  Most of them have no cash.   

So my baby is currently going after someone who is in his 80s and is bigger than her.

And yeah.  Fun stuff.

Rawr.  GO ONYXX! 
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Shatiz
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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2008, 04:28:14 am »
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Shatiz would tell you BOTH, and I would agree with him.

I think that bottom feeding IS a bad thing, in the essence that many players NEVER take chances, they only go for the weakest/richest they can find.  In that respect, it's not that great.

However, the rules of the game tend to necessitate it.  If you want to win, you need to bottom feed.  With the options of Mid-Fight Beefing and Assistance, to attack anyone close to your combat power or better is not just foolish, it practically amounts to suicide.

Pretty much yeah... as I explained in my analysis of the fighting system, which remains as valid as it was the day I wrote it, the problem isn't bottom-feeding in itself. It is impossible to remove bottom-feeding without removing Options from the game (by for example only make it possible for dragons to attack others their own size and age) which would be boring.

The problem is that every aspect of the game encourages you to bottom-feed. Only the stupid and stubborn don't do it. By stubborn I mean those of us that discard the obvious strategic advantages in favour of playing the way you feel is 'right' or less boring or something like that.

I've made suggestions on how the various forms of bottom-feeding could be reduced, mostly by actually encouraging other strategies (giving us more options instead of simply removing the "bad ones") on the bottom-feeders expense. Such as making the combat record more of a Quality * Quantity of wins, rather than simply a Quantity of wins affair. Not only would this make the combat system more forgiving towards losses (if you go after a high level target you take a large chance for large gains but if you fail you only lose the opportunity to win what you could have won against a medium or easy target, you don't go on minus like you do now), it would also reduce the reason for attacking very weak targets solely to boost your combat record since these targets would be considered low gain targets and you would have to beat a horde of them to gain as much as you would if you targeted medium or high level targets.

It would however not remove bottom-feeding as a strategy since Quantity of wins would still be signicant factor, but it would open the way for other strategies.

Basically I don't want to remove bottom-feeding, I merely want there to be other ways to be the Greatest Fighter than to pick on the weak (and pray to whatever Dieties you may believe in that no one strong comes along and forces you to reset by beating you a few times). There are some other suggestions to reduce the other forms of bottom-feeding, but I don't want to repeat myself more than I already have.
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chilung
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2008, 03:28:13 pm »
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This is in response to a recent post by Ravenex which I found really interesting, especially the section at the end, namely.

It appears we have all been implicated, so I don’t want to listen to moral high grounds please Smiley  The question I would like to pose is.  Is bottom feeding a bad thing, or is it good strategy that abides by correct roll play (in a fictitious PD "world").   All of us agree that attacking a really really young target with a 50 day difference is a bit much I imagine, or an obviously new dragon, but how about the in-between. 

Not including extremists who attack stupidly small dragons, is it bad to bottom feed?




From one point of view you could say bottom feeding is efficient as it increases the chances of victory, to say it's unfair is just one moral perspective on the situation,

However to say it's always efficient is less true. The idea of repairing items made it considerably less cost efficient over all if merely for the fact, that most people will target the smaller, younger and weaker dragon, which will generally reduce their horde to a couple of small children's toys (probably a shiny mass production bratz doll),

Therefore reduced returns, meaning to maintain equipment (which is needed to increase one's chances of success in current and future combats) your dragon must occasionally take risks or eventually reach the point where they can't afford to fund either their defence or offence and know they have as high a chance of victory.

Not to sound nasty, but I presume most dragons who want to maintain their place in the top fighters have at some time bottom fed, even merely for the fact after a while people take one look at your record, one look at your gold pile and decide it's better to go elsewhere.

You don't get the free attacks against you to earn off, so you have to go hunting for them, and every loss you take you fall at least 10 places so if you want to be up there, quite a few people are going to take the lower risk but generally lower return option.

Put it this way, the new system discourages it considerably more than the old one.




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Ruaidhrí
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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2008, 03:36:19 pm »
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There are a decent number of smaller dragons that have plenty of money.  I just found one the is noticeably smaller, losing record (less then 20 fight total), and a flowing bed of coins.  With dragons like this, bottom feeders don't have to take a risk on stronger dragons.
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chilung
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2008, 03:41:52 pm »
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There are a decent number of smaller dragons that have plenty of money.  I just found one the is noticeably smaller, losing record (less then 20 fight total), and a flowing bed of coins.  With dragons like this, bottom feeders don't have to take a risk on stronger dragons.

depends on where you are, at my size range most of the dragons that have coin are older and larger. Part of the fun and I'm still in the top 20 fighters.
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Ruaidhrí
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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2008, 04:01:56 pm »
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depends on where you are, at my size range most of the dragons that have coin are older and larger. Part of the fun and I'm still in the top 20 fighters.

That's true.  Some weight classes definitely have the advantage here. 
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Cathy
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2008, 05:08:47 pm »
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I'm toward the top of the fighters, but I don't consider myself a bottom feeder at all. If you have gold and you are young then you had better either hang out in your cave and gather combat points, or develop a network of friends who can come to your aid. (Or both). That is simply how to play a young dragon. I don't attack any dragon with less than an appreciable cache. Most of the dragons I attack now have their piles or flowing beds of gold. They must have money for me to consider them as a target. I see others at the top of the fight list who have barely any money though have fought more battles than me. I consider those guys bottom feeders... Where is the fun in that?! The GOLD is the fun!
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masterfool
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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2008, 05:14:20 pm »
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Cathy, if you only attack dragons that are "significantly smaller" than you, and are usually younger than you, then by the definition of most of the people in this forum you would be a bottom feeder. 

We are not saying it's necessarily a bad thing, just that it's a strategy.  I freely admit to bottom feeding some of my battles, particularly when I'm low on gold.
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Benjibob
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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2008, 05:43:24 pm »
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I was going to throw in my 2 cents worth but most people, primarily Shatiz and Masterfool again *sigh*, have summed the issue up quite nicely.  I am going to be as honest as possible about how my strategy has evolved.

I am ruthless in attaining my achievements.  i went for the 5 then 15 in a row.  I picked the easiest targets as dragonly possible, despite of the gold.  This I must admit was around when I was 50, and I was going for around the 20's.  I got the achievement and my fighting record started to look good.  I was in my sixties aimed for top 1000 rank in fighting.  This didn’t take too long and I went for targets around 20 days younger, no more.  Gold was a bonus. 

Now I am going for other achievements.  My targets are all roughly the same age, and have ample amounts of gold.  Once I reach my current strategy my game plan will change again entirely.

Nothing I did at all ever denoted what I call cheating, but instead reflected how the game, I believed, was designed and encouraged to be played. I will also say the strategies will differ largely to what size your dragon is.  A also believe, as shatiz said, that restricting bottom feeding will create a more balanced approached to attacking.  And that, I am afraid, is boring.  Would you like to be fighting dragons on a flip of a coin?

Anyways - I guess I put my 2 cents in after all
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Cathy
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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2008, 05:59:55 pm »
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Would you like to be fighting dragons on a flip of a coin?

Not at all. If skill and time spent hunting for victims didn't make any difference in the outcome, then the game wouldn't be as fun. I guess I take issue with the term 'bottom feeder' to begin with. We are DRAGONS. We are not kind, gentle little souls. To assume there should be some 'moral' standard involved and that all dragons should be nice to the young ones is dumb. We were all young once and learned how to survive and do well until we are grown up. We all went through that phase. There are no victims unless they want to be.

Cathy
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